Mastering Leadership and Communication with John C. Maxwell

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey friends, before we get into the show today, I want to take a moment to say how excited and grateful I am that my new book, the Seven Disciplines of Uncommon Freedom, is published and available for you. You can find it right now on Amazoncom or the audio version on Audiblecom. The response to the book so far has been amazing and I want to thank everyone for their support. Our guest on today's show, john C Maxwell, is one of the many reasons I wanted to write this book in the first place. His books and his talent as an author and leader have influenced and inspired me so much over the years. John C Maxwell is a no 1 New York Times bestselling author, speaker, coach and leader who has sold more than 34 million books. He is the founder of Maxwell Leadership, a leadership development organization that has trained tens of millions of leaders in every nation. Having been recognized as the no 1 leader in business and as the world's most influential leadership expert, maxwell continues to influence individuals and organizations worldwide, from Fortune 500 CEOs and national leaders to entrepreneurs and the leaders of tomorrow. For more information, visit MaxwellLeadershipcom.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Becca and I have been very fortunate to get to know John personally, and we are so privileged that he has taken time out of his schedule to be on today's show with us. This is an exceptional episode you do not want to miss. Let's dive in, all right, friends. Well, today we are super honored and excited to have a very special guest with us on the show. We are joined by our friend, john C Maxwell, and I know that if he was talking to you, he would say that he's your friend as well. John has published 89 books which is just an absolutely mind-blowing statistic that have sold more than 39 million copies worldwide. A couple of interesting facts about John's writing process is that he hand writes all of his initial drafts and that he begins working on his next book the day he submits a final manuscript. That's incredible.

Speaker 2: 2:02

So John has been a virtual mentor to me and Kevin for about 12 years and we were first introduced to his book, the Five Levels of Leadership, and it really rocked our world, and since then we have devoured so many of his resources and in fact, as a couple, we use the leadership promises for everyday devotional to get us through a really challenging season. So thank you, John, for that. We really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 2:24

John, your writings have been a huge influence on our lives. The positive impact that your books have had on us is one of the reasons I was inspired to write my first book, which is called the Seven Disciplines of Uncommon Freedom, which people have already said. Oh, that sounds like a John Maxwell title Boy. It's a good time. And then you recently released another book called the 16 Undeniable Laws of Communication. I just finished listening to it recently and it is a phenomenal book, super practical and just an awesome book that we're really excited to discuss with you today. John, welcome to the show. It's a huge honor. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: 3:06

Thank you so much, kevin Becky. It's good to see both of you. You're wonderful friends and I look forward to our next time together. But let's do a podcast today. What do you?

Speaker 1: 3:15

say let's do. It Sounds good. So, john, the first question I have is that the first law of communication in your book is the law of credibility. It was one of my favorite chapters and this subtitle was really important to me. The most effective message is the one that you live. Can you expound on that for us please?

Speaker 3: 3:37

I'll be glad to Kevin. It's possible to speak on a subject that you don't live. When I grew up in the educational field, I saw that happen all the time. So somebody picks a subject and they go out and they speak on it, but it's not really who they are, and I call that giving out information. In other words, I'm speaking on something that really doesn't affect me. It's not really who I am, but it's a good lesson. So I give it to you and basically you receive it in about the same attitude that I give it. It's kind of like well, that's nice, but there's no moral authority to it, there's no personal illness in it, there is no like conviction or burden or punch to it, and it's because I'm giving information to you but it has to go through me for it to have credibility. And so whenever I do a lesson, the first thing I do is I teach the lesson to me and I ask myself do I live this? Is this who I am? Is this what I do? Is this what I believe? And I don't think you have to be perfect in that subject.

Speaker 3: 4:58

There are a lot of times I'll say now, this is what I'm trying to become. I'm not there yet, but I'm working on what I'm going to give you today. I'm working on right now myself, what I'm going to share with you that will help you. I'm using right now to help me, and so sometimes, as a communicator, I come across, kevin, as a person on a kind of like, on a journey with you. It's like I'm okay, maybe I'm your teacher, but maybe I'm sitting beside you and we're learning together and we're growing together. But here's what I know if the subject doesn't affect me when I teach it, it won't affect you either. And we teach what we know, but re-reproduce what we are and who we are, and so that's the law of credibility. And so when somebody says I'm going to speak on the subject, what do you think? The first question I ask is well, do you live it?

Speaker 3: 5:54

When I was young in my communication years probably I was maybe 24, 25, very young, but I've been communicating for maybe two or three solid years I made this decision. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. I said I am not going to teach a lesson that I do not live or that I do not believe. I'm just not going to teach it. I'm not going to teach it, and therefore there are a lot of lessons I don't teach because I don't either live it or I don't believe it. But the moment that I made that decision I think it's the moment that I became very credibility I had a lot of credibility. Let's put it this way Authenticity alone doesn't make you successful, but if you lack it, I'll guarantee failure, and so it's kind of like the lesson has to live out and be who I am for it to be effective. Does that make sense? That?

Speaker 1: 6:51

makes a ton of sense. That's awesome, thank you.

Speaker 2: 6:54

Oh, my goodness, John, and I think that meeting you in person this was. Do you know how sometimes you meet someone that you really admire and then you think, hmm well, they weren't exactly what I expected them to be oh yes, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:06

And I'm sure you've had that encounter. Well, for us, meeting you was beyond what we would have expected, and it was mostly because of your authenticity and you just had this way of taking down walls where you know the person on the receiving end of communication with you feels like you're in the trenches with them, and that's such an experience, because the trust is so immediate, the trust is so immediately transferred that it's we're able to receive your messages so much more easily.

Speaker 3: 7:33

So thank you. You know, when I met the two of you, I just it's kind of like we were having a dinner together, but it was kind of like by then dinner I felt like I knew you all my life. It was just like. You know, these are just, you're just beautiful people, and I think one of the things that makes the two of you so very special to me is that you have that authenticity. You have that, that realness in your life and it shows up. Here's what I know.

Speaker 3: 7:58

Let me just say this, and when you don't know me, when I speak, you'll take my words at face value, but when you know me, everything I say now is put through the grid of does this person live that life? And so if you are authentic and credible, the longer people know you, the more powerful your words become, because they're not only words from your lips, but they're backed up by your life. Just ask if what you say and what you do doesn't resonate or doesn't connect. Then my words began to lose effectiveness, influence and power with you, because you say, well, he's just, he's just talking right now. Hey, he's just preaching right now, and and and you know it. So being credible as a communicator will make your words even have more moral authority and weight after people get to know you. If that makes sense to you, makes a ton of sense.

Speaker 2: 8:56

Completely. And then I think you know people will advocate for you as a speaker as well, because I know for us, having the experience with you in the small dinner setting was revolutionary. And then every conversation we had after that was like he is exactly what we were hoping he would be, you know, and and so that really transferred to how we were able to share how much of we admire you but your work and the time and effort you put in because you're so relatable. So that was really neat. Okay, our next question is in the law of collaboration, you mentioned that success is determined by the people you cook, the people you collaborate with to help you complete a task. What should we be looking for in people we collaborate with to make us better communicators?

Speaker 3: 9:36

Well, first of all, I have all those 16 laws in the in my book. I tell people, this law will get you further down the road faster than any of the laws I wish. When I was young, I didn't understand the law of collaboration at all, and so I didn't. In fact, I never entered my mind that I could sit down with something I was going to speak on and have a few friends give me some of their ideas and thoughts. And so I. I did it all by myself, which is a weakness, because now I'm teaching everything from a very personal but very small, my new narrow perspective, and and and. So when people say I want to really improve as a communicator, the first thing I tell them is this law, right here, the law of collaboration. What you got to do is you got to get some people around you that will help you, and I have. I'm honestly, I'm a feedback fanatic and and and and and. The reason for that is is because if I teach, if I'm getting ready to teach a subject, and I sit down with the two of you and I throw out the subject, I will promise you, promise you, promise you that you'll make it better. It's every, not not sometimes, but it's every time. And the reason why is because you have a total different perspective that I do on the same subject and you'll give me fresh eyes, you know you'll. You'll open up things that I'm blindsided to and all of us are like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's true. I never thought of that. So I, I, I, I tell people all the time because I like to talk about thinking. In fact, one of my favorite books I wrote several years ago now called called how Successful People Think, and, and. And there are two kinds of thinking that are just huge, and one of them is shared thinking, which is what we're talking about right here, that's collaboration. And the other is sustained thinking, which means I stay with the thought a little bit longer so I can go deeper with the thought, and I tell people, if they'll do those two things, their whole life will begin to improve.

Speaker 3: 11:37

So when I go into a room with an idea, I assume that when I walk out of that room, it'll be a better idea. Why? Because I'm sitting at a table with people like you and saying here's a thought that I have, or here's a lesson I'm gonna teach. Talk to me about it, improve it. What would you change? Oh, what did it make? What do I not have in it? And you'll make it better, and I walk out of the room much better than I walked into the room. In fact, if you walk into the room and then walk out of the room and you're not better, you don't have the right people in the room. To be honest with you, you better change the people in the room. So this collaboration and shared thinking is just huge, and in the book I talked about the kind of people you wanna have in the room, because I wanna write the book so that when people wanna collaborate, they get the right people. But, for example I think that you wanna excuse me I think that you want to have in that room people that are already good communicators themselves, because they understand the art and the communication. I think you wanna have people in the room that are creative, that can take an idea and improve it and make it better. I think you wanna have people in the room that really know you as a person, because a lot of times, though, the illustrations or the thoughts they'll draw out come out of life experiences with you. So these are things that you just wanna make sure that you have in the room when you collaborate, and if you do, it'll just get better. It'll just get better. So, for people that have just started speaking, the best thing you can do is invite a few people into a collaboration team and, by the way, talk to them before you speak and talk to them after you speak. Wow.

Speaker 3: 13:25

I've been writing for a lot of years and about 30 years ago I picked a person that was an English major. His name is Charlie Wetzel. He's been with me for over 30 years now. He helps me write books and I was pastoring that time and he was in my congregation, and so I would say, charlie, I said when I speak, I want you to pick out the two best minutes of a talk and the two worst minutes, wow, and I want you to tell me why they were the two best, and I want you to tell me why they were the two worst. And what I was trying to do is I was teaching them how to read an audience. I was teaching them how to read a teaching, and the reason I did that is because I thought if I can teach him how to do these things, when he writes for me, he'll write from my perspective.

Speaker 3: 14:12

I would give him a quote book, maybe a hundred quotes in it.

Speaker 3: 14:16

I say, charlie, you check off the best quotes. It could be five, maybe it's 20, I don't know. But what you think are the best quotes in the book, you check them off. And then let's go over the book. And so we'd do that, and I'd look at it and he'd have his little check marks there and I'd say now, charlie, I'll say, let me tell you a reason why I would never use that quote. And I would teach him I'd say so when you're researching for me. That's something that I won't really talk about. For example, I never use quotes that make me look smarter than my audience. I'm very careful of that. I don't walk out in front of my audience and say how many miles is the moon from the earth? Now, really, do we care? I don't know myself, but here's what I'm saying. I'm asking that question to make people think I'm smart, and it's all in the. So we share it. And so the first book we had almost all misses. What he thought was good and what I thought was good was not the same. And so I said now let me teach you why I would pick these quotes by the third book. About 90% of the time we're picking the same quotes and again, in collaborating it's that kind of conversation. I sharpened him, he sharpens me. We make each other better.

Speaker 3: 15:34

I think the one thing you have to be having a collaborating team is you have to be secure, because you don't want them to tell you what they think you want to hear. You want them to tell you, probably, what you don't want to hear and as a leader, if I'm not careful, I can shut people down or turn them off or keep them at a distance, and that doesn't help me, it doesn't help them. So I think you have to be secure and always have people that love you. I mean, don't bring the people who don't care for you into the room. So they're just a little things like that. I give a whole list in that chapter of people that you want to have on your collaborating team. But anyway, those are few thoughts.

Speaker 1: 16:22

So, john, good communicators learn from great communicators. That's the law of observation. Who are you learning from these days?

Speaker 3: 16:33

Well, I'm learning from everybody and let me just say this everybody is my teacher, and so whenever I hear someone communicate or talk, I listen very carefully to them and I ask myself what is it that works best for them?

Speaker 3: 16:48

And I promise you, when I hear anybody talk, I can walk up to them right now and say let me tell you where your real sweet spot is in communication. You want to stay here longer and you want to develop it and make it even better. So when people ask me, who are you learning from? I'm learning from everybody. I promise you again, if we were having lunch together, I would ask you a few questions and I'd say Becca, that's so good, that helps me a lot. My gosh, kevin, thanks, you helped me. So I think there is a posture of humility that makes us teachable. That is so important in observation. So I grew up Watching people communicate and of course, in the book I talk about Some of those people that taught me how to communicate. Then I was just. I just had a podcast earlier today with Andy Stanley and I mentored Andy's, a close friend of mine. Yeah, I mentored Andy for 30 years, and so we were talking about the book that, in fact, this is the book they're talking about right here the 16 laws of communication. So we were taught, we were talking about the book and, and so much of the time I would say I learned that from you, andy. You taught me that. You taught me to take one thing and rework it throughout the whole lesson and not talk about 25 different things and, and and to stay focused and stay centered.

Speaker 3: 18:15

So I'm constantly open and and learning, and, and listening To communicators. What's good about, though, hey, what works and what doesn't work, and, and and you'll know that you're going to become a Good student of communication. When you can, you can listen to somebody and say this is what makes them good or this is what hurts them. Right now, they need to, they need, they need to make a change here, and so you study. It's almost like sometime I used to turn the TV off when somebody was communicating and just watch them for five minutes and Asked myself what is it that's attractive that draws me in when I can't hear them? What mannerism do they have that I like? Oh, my gosh, what do they just do? As far as some kind of a movement that they had that I said, oh, that's, that's very attractive. I that don't help, so I've just, I'm constantly, constantly learning. I every day, every day, whoever I'm with, they're gonna, I'm gonna learn from them. They're gonna teach me something.

Speaker 1: 19:18

One of the things that I appreciated about that chapter in your book Was and it's something I have to go back and dig deeper into but teaching us that we have to figure out what our natural strengths are In our natural styles. Like you talked about humor, and that very few people can utilize humor Effectively, but a lot of people try and they end up falling flat on their face. So you really have to become a student of yourself, also ask for feedback, like I wish you would have been there at the Presentation I I gave back in March, because I would love to have your feedback on that. But you know, being willing to have that feedback, but also being a student of yourself to figure out, okay, what am I good at, what do I need to focus on? So it was, it was. It was very helpful for me to realize I need to go back, study that chapter and develop a better game plan for myself for what my strengths are when it comes to communication.

Speaker 3: 20:17

Yeah, I'd. So that's such a good point. I'm glad you brought it up, kevin, and let me just say this Well, I do a lot speaking international. I think I don't really know, but I think I've spoken in over a hundred countries of the world. I've spoken in probably half the country to the world. Of course, that's no big deal. If you're old, you get to do that, if you're not old, you can't do that. So I mean so, but, but, but, but. The but.

Speaker 3: 20:36

The point being, when I spoke to international audiences in the beginning was very difficult, because Humor doesn't translate. There's a whole bunch of things that don't really work with an international culture, that all the innuendos, all that stuff it does. And so for the first few years I didn't like it. I didn't like speaking internationally because it was just, it was a different world, but but so this is all about communicating, connecting. But I learned quickly that Maybe I was getting ready to tell a story and and I would look at the audience and I'd say now you're gonna have to help me here, and maybe I'm gonna tell a story about giving an allowance to my children for doing chores, and I know I'll ask him do you, do you do that here in this country, do you?

Speaker 3: 21:21

Do you give an allowance for doing chores? And sometimes I'll not say, yeah, we do that's. Oh. Okay, this story is gonna work here. Thank you for helping me. And and maybe I'd ask a couple more questions about the chores and the Allows. And then, and sometimes it look at me and and nobody's home, they don't give a, and I'd say, okay, well, I'm not gonna use that now. It's that time. Oh my gosh, it made me become an International connector with people.

Speaker 3: 21:46

And here's what I discovered a long time ago when you're not sure, and you're speaking, just stop and ask the people, say you know, does this relate to you? It did do. Is this something that is your world? If it is, let's go forward. If it isn't, we'll go another route. And and it's just Taught me so much and what happens is the moment you ask people to help you, they are on your side. I mean, they're in there pitching for you and and they're giving you a thought or not, and say, oh man, I love that. Okay, I'm gonna talk about that, and off you go, and you know they're saying what a great speech. Well, I just took their idea. So all of that is part of learning how to communicate and connect with people. That's good.

Speaker 2: 22:28

I'm a former school teacher and part of the reason I went into teaching was Both because I wanted to make an impact, but also because of being in environments where I didn't enjoy the way the communication happened and I thought to myself why are you in this career field? Because you have such power to Create change, if you can create impact and drive someone to action, but then so many people just stand up there and just talk and it Just disappointing, I think, to the person who's listening, because there's just no engagement. So hearing how you've been just such a student of that your entire life is it's fascinating and it's no wonder you're so good at what you do. One of our questions is for those listening that don't necessarily communicate from stage how do these laws of communication help them?

Speaker 3: 23:17

I'm so glad you asked that question back up because I Think when the people pick up the book they're gonna naturally say I think this is for a speaker and it's not. Somebody asked me the other day now said who who can benefit from your book on communication? I said If you talk you can benefit. Now, if you don't talk to people, then you don't really want the book. Okay, but I mean, think about a parent. What do you as a parent do? You're trying to influence your children. You're trying to connect with your children. You're trying to put the right values into their life. You're I mean you're communicating constantly to your children.

Speaker 3: 23:57

Every one of these laws can be applied on a one-to-one level, one-to-small group level or one-to-a-large audience level. So when we wrote it, what makes the laws work is that the laws work. It's, you know, it's like you know, this is my fourth laws book. I wrote the laws of leadership, the laws of teamwork, the laws of personal growth and now the laws of communication. And I can still remember when I wrote the laws of leadership, which was my first laws book, I had a guy come up to me and he said Johnny said I disagree with one of your laws. I was signing books and he said I disagree with one of your laws and I said that's okay and I signed the book and handed it back to him. He just stood there and all of a sudden I realized it wasn't okay with him, that it was okay with me that he disagreed with one of the laws, and I told him, I said you know, you know, I write the book to help you, not to make you happy. I'm a leader, not a clown.

Speaker 3: 24:53

But then I told him I said look, it's kind of like a person say I disagree with the law of gravity, okay, but if you go up to five story building and jump off, you immediately by the law. I mean the laws don't ask you if you like them or if you agree with them, it's just they, just they're the laws. So the laws of communication cross over. They cross over culture, they cross over to the size of the group of people that you're speaking. They cross over as far as time. That's what makes them. That's what makes them a law. When I write these law books, I spent a lot of time really reducing them down to what are the essential laws laws of leadership, but it relates to any, any, if you are communicating, if you're wanting it all to influence people by your words, then it's a it's a priceless book.

Speaker 1: 25:45

Excellent, agreed. So, john, what's next for you? Can you share anything about what you're currently working on, since we know that you start your next manuscript the second or the day after you submit your your final?

Speaker 3: 25:58

Well, this one is really unusual. Okay, this is on your podcast only, okay, but, yeah, as soon as I wrote this book, I wrote another book called how to Receive a Return on Failure. Okay, and, and, and I wrote that book. In fact, when I was with you, if I remember right, I taught that lesson to your group how to receive return. Okay, so the manuscript's done, and, and we have our own publishing company now. So I, you know, I put it in the queue and I said this would will follow the 16 laws of leadership or of communication, and then, about about six weeks ago, I just felt very clearly that I needed to write a book as quickly as I could, because I feel it's it's pressing on on our culture. So I, I'm writing a book right now that'll come out next March, and so the how to receive return on failure has been put on the on the shelf for a moment. It's it'll come out, but it won't be the next book out.

Speaker 3: 27:03

The next book that's going to come out is a book I'm entitled. I'm calling it a high road leadership and and with us, with the subtitle bringing people together in a world that divides. And I, just I'm, I'm, I'm leadership, sad. I'm very heavy in in when I see our country and I see what's happening and and I'm seeing leaders divide people instead of bring them together and do it for personal interest instead of people's interest. So, anyway, so I'm writing that book right now and I got my writing team on it. We're, in fact, this was this is a major collaboration book because I have to write it fairly quickly. I brought, I brought six, my six key writing team people and we've spent four days now just working the book, working the book, talking back, throwing back ideas and and, and we're going to spend a couple more days. So this is a major collaboration book, but so that'll be. That'll be the next one.

Speaker 3: 28:05

But, yes, I write, every I wrote. You know I'm I'm doing podcasts this is, I'm in the studio all day doing podcasts, but but I've got up early this morning and I wrote for about two hours before, you know, before it came here. But I'm always writing and and I have about, oh, eight or nine books that I still want to write, and then I mean they're on the kind of in the line you know. So I I'm a person of faith. So I was talking to God the other day. I said God, you, I've got some more books I got. Are you going to let me live longer?

Speaker 3: 28:35

You know, as if God's going to say oh, I never thought about that, john, of course, right, right, I write every day, I just do.

Speaker 1: 28:45

That's who I am.

Speaker 3: 28:46

That's who I am and that's what I do.

Speaker 1: 28:48

Yeah, that's part of the power of five for you.

Speaker 2: 28:50

Yes.

Speaker 1: 28:51

You better believe it, John. That's kind of a cool transition because we wanted to focus on the 16 laws of communication. But I, I, I asked, I did a post on Facebook about a week ago and I said, hey, I have the you know, the special opportunity to interview John Maxwell. What one question would you ask him If you have the opportunity to interview him yourself? So I got quite a few responses and there were some interesting themes, but there's two questions I'd love to ask you in the last few minutes we have, and the first one really lines up well with what you just talked about how have you had to adjust your leadership techniques to meet the challenges of our changing society over the last three to four years?

Speaker 3: 29:34

We've gone through major changes. In my 50 plus years of leading and teaching leadership and writing on leadership, I would say that we are in now the most challenging time that I can remember. Several things have happened. Social media has now become the dominant impression upon culture. Covid took everybody out of their comfort zone and caused us all to live a life that was uncomfortable and different. And, for example, in leadership, before COVID you could. You could as a leader layout. This is kind of the vision. Let's go and people would pretty well say you know the leader in the okay.

Speaker 3: 30:19

Five years ago the leader controlled the conversation and pretty much controlled the agenda. That's not true now. Today, leaders have to be able to pivot quickly, so the sum of leadership has to. You know, one of the big differences is people. Now, through social media, they almost declare what the agenda is going to be for the leader, instead of the leader declaring the agenda for the people. Some of that's good, some of that's not good at all, but so you have to be a better listening leader now. You have to have much more flexibility, you have to be able to adjust extremely quick, and in fact I wrote a book called Leader Shift Before all this happened and that book has gone crazy. But I know why it's gone crazy because I wrote it before COVID and I didn't know. But all of a sudden people are you know the word pivot, pivot, pivot. We heard so many times that it has to be. Leaders have to be much more willing to hold their agenda and serve the need, people's immediate need, first, so that they can then get to their agenda. Cause when a person has a need, a felt need, they're not listening to what you, where you want to go, until that felt need is addressed. And so it's kind of like I tell leaders now, find your people, help them where they are and see and ask yourself how long it's gonna take them to be able to take a journey with you. And for some they can do it quicker than others, but the leader's pace is slower right now it's much more slower.

Speaker 3: 32:03

People don't accept leaders, the leadership, as easily as they did. And we've confused, we've confused a voice on social networking with leadership itself. And you know, you see, you never know what kind of a leader you are until you ask for commitment from people. I mean, that's a big joke. I watch people, you know well, I have X amount of followers. That all that means is people are you know just, you know Instagram, whatever it is. They're just, they're just looking at you and, by the way, they move from you in about 3.2 seconds to something else and so they can they confuse. I got X amount of followers with I'm leading those people. You're not leading those people at all, and so there's a big deal. You'll know that when you're leading people and you're a good leader, because when you ask for commitment, they buy into it. There's a very little commitment through social media, so those are changes. Yeah, hopefully I answered the question pretty good for you and that's good, that's really good.

Speaker 2: 33:11

And then I just think about when you talk about, you know, finding the felt needs of the people you're working with. It's a noisy world right now, so like I'm not sure the people even always know what their felt needs are, and it seems like they're changing so quick. It's almost like people are so needy right now that they're not as strong as they used to be, they're not as resilient as they used to be, and so leading them is definitely more difficult because you have to, like you said, find the ones that will commit to something and follow through.

Speaker 2: 33:38

And it seems more scarce than it used to be, would you agree?

Speaker 3: 33:42

100%. I would agree, and I love the phrase. I'm gonna in fact, I wanna steal it from you and use it. It's a noisy world.

Speaker 1: 33:50

It's really noisy.

Speaker 3: 33:51

Everybody's clamoring for attention and a little bit of space somewhere, and you're exaggerating. It's not a thinking world, it's not a reflective world, and the insecurities and dysfunction of people have them looking for thumbs up from people they don't even know, and it's kind of either making their day or breaking their day, and I'm thinking you don't even know these people. Here's what we have discovered in transformation of countries Because we teach values, the more good values I have within me, the less validation I need from the outside. But if I don't have good values within me, oh my gosh, I am a sucker for validation, and so I think what happens is we have a culture that lacks good, solid, proven values, and then that's it. So we're drifting. We're drifting and just looking for anything that gives us any kind of hope, which is no one has ever drifted to a desired location. Okay, that is so true, you just don't do it. Okay, I had another question, kevin.

Speaker 2: 35:02

I don't want to take it. I'm closing, we're back, so then maybe you've covered this a little bit. But if you had anything else you wanted to share your best advice for leading through adversity, because it definitely feels like that's kind of where a lot of us are living right now, where we've been at a place where we've been on more of a high and now it's a more challenging season to lead through. So what advice would you give for that?

Speaker 3: 35:23

Well, beck, I have a teaching called the leadership dance and I call it the leadership dance because there's movement to it and basically the teaching is this there are times when you need to be in front of the people. They need to see the example Truly. The words follow me are the words they need to hear. During adversity. You need to be with the people, you need to be walking in the crowd so you can hear what they're saying and you can listen to them and you're close and you can touch them. If that makes sense, okay.

Speaker 3: 36:00

In adversity, you also better dance up high. You better go above the people. You gotta see a bigger picture than they do, because when crisis happens, the picture narrows. You watch people during adversity and crisis and what was this big gets like this. They become. This is all they can see right here, and so you gotta be above them. Somebody's gotta be looking for the big picture. And then you also need to sometimes you need to walk behind them. In other words, you've led them. You need to see them walk without you to see if they're applying all the leadership teaching you're doing. You see what I'm saying.

Speaker 3: 36:37

So when people talk about leadership and that's just top down or they don't know leadership is. It's a dance and during adversity and difficult times, you better be dancing, which means there are some people you need to be in front of, there are some people you need to be slide up, there are some people you need to be above and there are some people you need to be behind. And it's not the same in your group. In your, you've got a huge group. In your group. They're requiring different dancing from you and you have to be able to do all of those things for them.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Multi-dimensional leadership wow, that's.

Speaker 3: 37:14

Yeah, totally Becca yeah yeah, totally Well, john.

Speaker 1: 37:18

last question is we're coming up on college football season and we share our passion for the same team. Are they having you come to speak?

Speaker 3: 37:27

Well, you know, they asked me every year to come and speak. I didn't go last year, but I go a lot of years for I did. He's talking about Ohio State. Yeah, we know, you know.

Speaker 3: 37:42

Oh yeah, you know, I grew up in Ohio so I keep close touch, especially with their athletic director, and so we'll see what the season unfolds. I kind of look at my schedule and see if I can maybe get up to. I have an invitation to go to Notre Dame when they play, when Ohio State plays at Notre Dame, and I may run up there and go to that game. But we'll see, we'll see. But yeah, I'm a Big Buckeye fan and maybe this will be the year, you know, we hope so that's what we say every year as Cleveland fans as well.

Speaker 1: 38:18

So, hey, john, it was an absolute treat, a privilege and an honor. If you'd asked me a year and a half ago when I started my podcast, kevin make a list of people you'd like to have on, that you don't think is possible you would have been at the top of that list, and we're just so grateful for the mentorship that you've given us through your books and then now personally over the last few months, and we just we pray for you. We're so grateful for you and I am looking forward to the pheasant hunt in September with you.

Speaker 3: 38:47

So oh, I'm so glad you're going with me.

Speaker 1: 38:49

Yeah, oh, this is gonna be so we will have so much.

Speaker 3: 38:53

You know, you know. So I first of all thanks for having me on your podcast. You're beautiful people, beautiful people, but I want the people that listen to you, watch you, follow you, observe you. Excuse me just a second, let me get a little water here. Here's why I want the people to know you're the real deal. You're just beautiful people who care enough to lead well. You don't care enough to lead well. I tell people all the time if you, when you stop loving your people, stop leading them, because you'll start misusing them and back at you. And Kevin care, you really care, and I love that about you. I love the fact that you put your people first and you want your people to have the very best and you withhold nothing from them. You're always ready to resource them, teach them, do everything you can to improve their life, and so you're beautiful friends and I'm very excited about your leadership and what you're doing and I'm your friend, so if you need anything, you know where I am. Okay, we do.

Speaker 2: 39:57

Thank you so much, John. You've been such a blessing.

Speaker 3: 40:00

Hey blessings.

Speaker 2: 40:01

Have a good rest of your day.

Speaker 1: 40:04

Great, john. Thank you so much. We know you've got a tight time schedule. We got you out of here three minutes early, but thank you so much. It's an absolute treat, are you both?

Speaker 3: 40:13

pleased Okay.

Speaker 2: 40:15

Real. Oh my goodness, it was awesome yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:17

Yes, well, tell all of our friends hi, would you? Okay, we definitely will. I'm so excited about you coming to Pheasant High. Okay, I've never done it before. So, oh, it's a, it's Pheasant shooting. Oh my gosh, I'm not a hunter. A hunter means you have to go find something and once in a while you see it and you hope you can hit it. Yeah, this is, oh, no, no, this. You walk down the field and those dogs work and the pheasants are flying and you just shoot away. I mean, it's like I I'm not a fisherman, I'm a catcher. I want to catch it, I don't mind, you know, don't, don't? I don't want to go hunting for something, I want to go out and shoot something, and so, yeah, and I'm going to take, I'm going to take my massage therapist up there, and we'll have one up there too. So we'll have, we'll have masseuses up. Oh no, hey, I take care of my people when they go on trips.

Speaker 2: 41:03

I told Kevin I need my female version of John Maxwell because he's got all these amazing mentorship guy things and you know I'm excited for him. But I'll just, I'll just take care of him.

Speaker 3: 41:13

Oh, you know, we got, you know, we got Doris Kern's Goodwin on a round table coming up and at Hyde Park we're going to go to FDR's home, federal Roosevelt's home and his and his and his presidential library. And I got, I got Dan Cathy, who has built now the largest movie studio in the world and and we're going to do one with him this fall, called Imagine, which is all about vision and what imagine, what you could do to be an influence on your own, dan Cathy, of course, is the Check the light, check the light. So I got, I got. I got a couple that are very that you will love Exchange, oh, and exchange.

Speaker 3: 41:54

You guys ought to come to exchange. I do that every year for about 130 people three days of experience. We're in a different city every year. We'll be in Vegas this year, but we go to a different city every year and I teach leadership and we go out and we meet. We meet high level people doing all kind of incredible things. It's a leadership experience you ought to bring your buddies. You, the six of you ought to come to that.

Speaker 1: 42:18

It's been anyway Sounds amazing. So if it doesn't happen this year, maybe next year we've got a.

Speaker 3: 42:23

I haven't scheduled this. You're, you're, you're so busy. I know you are.

Speaker 2: 42:27

We celebrate 25 years of marriage this year, which I know you're probably or I know your way ahead of us, but it's still pretty cool for us. So we've got a few things on the show.

Speaker 3: 42:34

You can't do 54 if you didn't do 25.

Speaker 2: 42:37

Exactly that's right. Is that what you've been married with 54?

Speaker 3: 42:41

54.

Speaker 1: 42:42

Awesome. All right, john, we want to respect your time. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 42:46

John.

Speaker 1: 42:46

Super grateful and I'll see you in a month and a half.

Speaker 3: 42:49

All right, we'll have some fun. Bye, bye, blessings.

Speaker 2: 42:52

Thanks, guys, take care.

Speaker 1: 42:57

Hey friends, thanks for listening to the Uncommon Freedom show. First, I want to extend another massive thank you to our friend John Maxwell for being on our show today. What an amazing conversation it was. And, as promised, as an exclusive offer to our podcast audience, john's team is offering a limited time discount code on the book, plus free shipping. Go to www.16lawsofcommunicationcom and use promo code Kevin at checkout. That's promo code K-E-V-I-N. You'll get the cheapest available price as well as free shipping. So it's just as good as Amazon.

Speaker 1: 43:36

Second, I want to thank everyone who has checked out my new book, the Seven Disciplines of Uncommon Freedom. I am beyond grateful for the support, encouragement and positive feedback I have received so far. If you want to get a copy for yourself or a friend, just head to Amazoncom and search the Seven Disciplines of Uncommon Freedom. It's available in paperback, ebook and audiobook versions. Third, if you have enjoyed the book, would you please leave a great review on Amazon? Five star preferred Reviews are so important to continuing to get the book out there and into more people's hands. Thank you so much for your support.